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A question here on DIYSE shows a very tidy panel, wherein the hot and neutral conductors and the bare grounds are bundled, respectively, with scraps of insulated wire.

For the sake of argument, let's assume that the bundle wraps are no more than 8" apart on their respective bundles (the main breaker is ~2½" high on its face).

Is this safe, legal (per NEC), and advisable?

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isherwood
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2 Answers2

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Wow, many violations at once. But I'll start with what you're asking about.

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Tight grouping of wires will cause thermal problems. I see two bundles of (edit:) 12-22 wires, which are treated particularly harshly by 310.15(B)(3)(a) in terms of wire derate.

  • #12 is 15A
  • #10 is 20A
  • #8 is 27.5A
  • and above that you're going to want aluminum

Now you can quibble that it's less than 2 feet, but (edit) look what's happening on the right side. The GFCIs alone contribute 10 wires, which run from the top of the GFCIs to the top of the panel. And even if you could whip out your ruler and slide in on a technicality, that misses the point - you don't want to defeat convection wire cooling without a really good reason and this "OCD done wrong" neatness is not a good reason at all.

If they did this in the panel, they may have done it in the walls, which is much worse because you have 2 wires instead of 1 in a given cable.

Theft of copper. Not an NEC violation but a violation of your state's licensure. Spare length really helps later (i.e. some time in the next 50 years of the panel) when you need to move things around, to add things or correct error. So nipping off every spare bit of length mostly just serves the electrician, who can take the cut ends home and get $3/lb for shiny copper scrap. Generator interlock and surge suppressors must go at the top, and emerging smart breakers sometimes need an extra space for the electronics. So over time, this will turn this formerly neat panel into a ruckus of wire nuts... which defeats the "claimed" purpose of doing this in the first place!

Obviously this isn't a concern if you're not looking any farther past getting the closing papers signed. Then the neatness helps by tricking the home inspector into confusing neatness and code compliance.

White wires not identified to be hot wires on the left side.

Cable clamps look sketch.

Guard covers on the utility side of the main breaker terminals, a NEC 2020 thing IIRC. Another NEC 2020 violation is lack of surge protector, which then segues back into the copper theft.

Running the panel without its deadfront cover installed or with a non-approved clear glass cover. Now maybe the person is not doing that, but if they aren't, then there's no earthly reason to create the thermal problem.

Harper - Reinstate Monica
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    Using my recently calibrated "finger calipers", it appears that the bundled section is 9-10 breakers tall. Those look (to my uneducated eye) to be Eaton CH breakers and, according to the [Eaton site](https://www.eaton.com/us/en-us/catalog/electrical-circuit-protection/ch-circuit-breakers.models.html) CH breakers are 3/4" wide. 10 breakers at 3/4" each is 7.5". Take it for what it's worth. – FreeMan Jun 28 '23 at 13:20
  • @FreeMan note the right side and the block of five GFCI breakers, which contribute 2 wires each, so 10 from there to the top. It's a wobbler, but physics is the ultimate decider, not code. – Harper - Reinstate Monica Jun 28 '23 at 17:58
  • To back up Harper's reaction, I recently had to rearrange some breakers in my panel, and I was severely limited on where I could go because the DIYers before me didn't leave enough wire to make it to even half of the positions in the panel. Splices may be allowed in the panel, but they're far worse than neatly routed, unbundled wires with enough length to spare. – Logarr Jun 28 '23 at 20:06
  • Good point about the extra neutrals in the bundle. I was under the impression that the length of the "over stuff" was important. I'd agree with your edit that doing it this way just to do it this way and getting away on a technicality violates the _spirit_ of the rule. I'm still learning and I'm trying to apply what I've learned so far - sometimes I apply it wrong... – FreeMan Jun 28 '23 at 23:58
  • This is, of course, subjective but I don't even think the above wiring looks better than, say, [this one](https://preview.redd.it/9782g6rt8f2b1.jpg?width=3000&format=pjpg&auto=webp&v=enabled&s=6d6404cadbc2f3725992b84a6b7266dc341dfcdf). Incidentally, I was quite surprised at how many panels that I found at reddit.com/r/electricians had their wires zip-tied. – Dean MacGregor Jun 29 '23 at 09:55
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Table 310.15(B)(3)(a) More than 3 current carrying conductors in raceway or cable bundled for more than 24" have to be derated to prevent damage to the insulation from excessive heat. What's not clear here, since I can't make out the panel number is how long are the wires bundled for. It looks like the actual ties are less than 24" apart and before and after the wire ties, it's no different than a panel without the ties. Does an electrical panel even count as a raceway, conduit, etc.

JACK
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  • `derated` to what and WHY – asinine Jun 27 '23 at 22:36
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    You've confirmed, by my way of thinking, that this is not a prohibited practice. The bundle is far less than 24", as you suspect, and a panel is open enough to not be considered a raceway for purposes of derating calculation (which is primarily concerned with maximum fill scenarios in conduit and conduit bodies). – isherwood Jun 28 '23 at 13:24